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    Iraq - Should we stay or should we go?

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    Eldracar
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    Iraq - Should we stay or should we go?

    Post by Eldracar on Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:21 am

    In the interest of getting this section kick-started, I'm ready to get my debate-on. I'd like to keep things friendly - I don't want people getting all red in the face and insulting each other and whatnot. I'm assuming that we all know how to act mature and treat each other with respect, even if we disagree. The idea is to get some more activity on these forums by having a greater variety of topics and discussions.

    Anyway, I'll start things off with my own position on our (America's) involvement in Iraq - I believe that we had no business going into Iraq and that it was an unjust war that has done great harm to the country. However, now that we are there, it would be even worse for us to pull out before establishing stability. We made the mess, so it's up to us to clean it up.

    I await your responses!
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    Re: Iraq - Should we stay or should we go?

    Post by Fact on Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:26 pm

    I kind of agree

    However, Based on the Information at the time i believe it was the right choice to go in, obviously hindsite is 20-20 however now that we are there i believe we need to finish the job. that means no timetables for removal of troops and get the country running again

    The Timetable is the worst idea ever

    Say im Pillaging you, and i say, hey you know what i will stop on the 20th of this month, what would you do? you will keep resources and all that good stuff off til the 20th, once i stop you will start to build your military presence back up, same goes with the insurgents. if they know when you are leaving they will just "Wait it out"

    if Barrack pulls the troops before the job is done not only will the region become unstable but our troops will have died for nothing (in the eyes of the soldiers that have lived and watched their buddies die in their arms)


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    Re: Iraq - Should we stay or should we go?

    Post by Bullpid on Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:16 pm

    Amen Greety. I couldn't have said it any better myself.


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    Re: Iraq - Should we stay or should we go?

    Post by preciouspearl77 on Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:02 pm

    I think we shouldn't have gone into Iraq in the first place. It was an irresponsible action by an irresponsible president.

    President Bush has constantly set a goal then, when the goal is reached, instead of pulling the troops out as he promised he has set a new goal. It's not only demoralizing for the troops, it's created a negative outlook for Americans.

    Furthermore the money that is funding the Iraqi War is coming from loans; loans that American taxpayers will have to repay with higher taxes. It's becoming a ridiculous and vicious circle.

    I think that it is past time to pull our troops out. The last thing this country needs is another Viet-Nam.

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    Re: Iraq - Should we stay or should we go?

    Post by kaliiza on Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:37 pm

    From a wifely standpoint... I'd like to point out that deployments suck. Aegas and I have been married for six years and he has been home for three. It is selfish and I feel horrible saying this (because people are suffering in Iraq), but I don't give two shits about the war. My roommate died (her family is still devastated), two of my friends came back drunks with PTSD (happily they are better now- sort of), I've been on the end of threatening phone calls from recruiters to bring me back to the Army, recalls that I had to fight (while Aegas was deployed and I had a newborn), and the fact that my husband doesn't get to sit and eat dinner with us. Not to mention, my kids are growing up without their dad. My five year old flipped out when my husband deployed the last time. Flipped out for a year. I damn near lost my mind.

    Now this is probably TMI since you all are complete strangers. But for every civilian in here who thinks "staying the course" is doing the right thing... good for you. Go enlist. Your name on a list means that my husband might be home for more than a year. You all forget that our sacrifices are actually sacrifices. Sacrifices that "thank you for serving" doesn't always cover or fix. I might sound cold, but some of my own extended family doesn't care about what my family goes through. War war war. The strain placed on military families is very real. In the six years that we have been on Ft. Hood, wives have committed suicide, vandalism by children is frequent especially in the summers, divorce is high, infidelity, depression...

    So I want the troops to come home. I do not believe we are safer than 5 years ago. Right here...We are families that need to heal from this. The soldiers need rest and stability. Our kids need stability. Shoot, I need stability. The Iraqis are grown men and women. Let them try to make it work themselves.

    With all due respect to people's opinions, people have died. Not all soldiers hold to fighting until the fight is through to honor the dead. In case you haven't noticed, that just means more casualties. Honor the dead by preserving the living.

    From the horse's mouth "If this were to keep going, I'd say pull out." My husband is a soldier. His opinion counts, right?
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    Re: Iraq - Should we stay or should we go?

    Post by Fact on Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:12 pm

    at what point do you pull out? Now, a week, do you broadcast a pullout date or do you let it be silent, and slowly pullback. because lets face it though i too believe we need to get out, but we have to do it responsibly.


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    Re: Iraq - Should we stay or should we go?

    Post by Greeny42 on Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:14 am

    Greety there is only really one flaw in your argument. To remove the troops at all there will have to be an announcement and formal timetables. To pull out will take a great deal of time. All the troops, supplies, and temporary infrastructure will have to be removed and not to mention there are a lot of political wheels to grease not only in America, but in Iraq. (if we want them to have sovereignty at all) There is no such thing as a silent pullout. They are going to know when we're leaving no matter what we do.

    So unless we stay there forever, the just wait it out mentality, will always be there. That is just the mentality of this core group of insurgents anyway. We will never outlast them. There will always be radical elements in the middle east and throughout the world. We can however show the Iraqi government and their people the proper respect with a gradual pullout starting soon. And it has to be soon.

    What does finishing the job actually mean? What are the requirements for that? We've given them the tools, ability,the foundation, and the opportunity to take this fight into their own hands. Peace has to come from the Iraqis themselves, and it would be a great help if they didn't have over a hundred thousand Americans there to help focus the insurgent hate and create more unrest.

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    Re: Iraq - Should we stay or should we go?

    Post by kaliiza on Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:16 am

    I have to agree with Greeny. My apologies too. I try to stay off political forums about Iraq because it is a very sensitive topic. I'll try to keep the emotions in check. But from a political standpoint, there is no silent out. For Iraqi politics this is a hot issue. In some ways, it is necessary for the Iraqi politicians to show they have the authority to control their own country. First step, kicking us out. We have to acknowledge that they are sovereign or just let the facade go and take over fully.
    From a military standpoint there is no silent out. Everyone is monitoring troop levels. Reporters would be all over a drop. Even if no one said it out loud, speculations would be rampant. Military leaders would be pushed for information. (And you can't believe one of our own politicians wouldn't open his pie hole if it served the political agenda). The goal of the military the past few years has been to get information to soldiers and families as fast and reliably as possible in order to deal with deployments. Such a high level of secrecy would be extremely difficult.
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    Re: Iraq - Should we stay or should we go?

    Post by Fact on Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:23 pm

    lol dont worry about my posts i try to take the "Opposite" side everytime even if i dont believe in it, makes discussions more interesting. lol when i have a rebute? i will repost


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    Re: Iraq - Should we stay or should we go?

    Post by Rohan on Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:59 pm

    You know, I typically stay out of heated debates like this. Mostly because feelings get hurt and the topic will always be just a topic of interest to those outside the military community. I feel that we talk entirely too much. As for the families, counselors are getting trained in the military end of things both family counselors and regular mental health professionals who might handle PTSD as well as other issues related to being deployed. My grad school is working hard on preparing the counselors who are just starting out for these types of jobs and there is a great deal of research being done right now to help military families (especially the families... There hasn't been much research done on the single folks who are coming back who have little if any support).

    Now, for my opinion. I never supported the war in Iraq. I have always felt that war is not the answer. Wars have raged for thousands of years over there because of religious beliefs and the differences in them between countries. Our military force will not change that. Once we leave the war will continue whether we are there or not. We haven't seen much change in the issues over there from a civilian point of view, will we ever? Most likely not. I haven't had family over there, yet... But I have had many friends who have served and are serving. In talking with them when they return... they don't feel like they did much if any good to aide the Iraqi people. In fact they don't have any faith left in our government and refuse to vote because of it. I truly hope that Pres Elect Obama will change our outlook and how things are handled over there. For the good of both cultures.

    In point of fact, I believe that the only reason we are over there now is because of the mistakes of Daddy Bush. Thankfully I didn't vote for either Bush. (not that I was old enough for daddy Bush's election). I do think that things will change over time with our new president.

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    Re: Iraq - Should we stay or should we go?

    Post by kaliiza on Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:51 pm

    There are several problems with the issue of mental health. The Army is trying. I will say that. However, when soldiers come they are not required to undergo mental evaluation. It is all voluntary. Another problem is money. There is just not enough of it. In Texas, the state gave 700K to Scott and White Hospitals to develop an anonymous mental health program. It is free to all soldiers and their families who have served in OIF, OEF..etc. The Army can't handle the load. Plus, ... and I know people throw this around alot.. there is a certain stigma attached.

    For families, no one wants to be told that "well the mission comes first." A few years ago, that was how people counseled. Chaplains, psychologists... didn't matter. Mission first. -

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    Re: Iraq - Should we stay or should we go?

    Post by Rohan on Sun Dec 14, 2008 4:24 pm

    I agree with those statements, however, I was speaking from strictly the civilian end of things. I know that there is a stigma with it and that as a military member if you undergo treatment through the military you may not be promoted when your next promotion comes to pass because you went through mental health counseling. As a counseling student we are working on getting more civilian counselors trained to handle this situation for both the families and the military professionals. If we can do this their military insurance would pay for it and then we bypass the need for as many counselors on the base and the promotion issue. However, this only works stateside because the civilians won't move to another country to provide counseling services to them. Chaplains are a great service to the military, but if you are not a religious guru and don't' trust the clergy, then they are useless... A great link for those who wish to see what my school is doing is: http://joiningforcesamerica.org/

    We can only go so fast to implement this kind of action though because it takes three years to get through a masters degree in counseling (any kind) and then another one for training and etc depending on the state where you reside.

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    Re: Iraq - Should we stay or should we go?

    Post by yogibare on Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:47 pm

    I think we should stay in Iraq. There is nothing worse than being in the military with nobody to shoot at. Besides its great training and exercise for our troops.

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    Re: Iraq - Should we stay or should we go?

    Post by preciouspearl77 on Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:43 pm

    yogibare wrote:I think we should stay in Iraq. There is nothing worse than being in the military with nobody to shoot at. Besides its great training and exercise for our troops.


    As of March 29, 2008 2,873 American Soldiers Have Died In Iraq & 21,572 Have Been Wounded.

    The 2,873 men and women who died in Iraq could have done without the "great training".

    The 21,572 Americans wounded in Iraq could have done without the "exercise".

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    Re: Iraq - Should we stay or should we go?

    Post by Rohan on Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:01 am

    Most of the men and women who are over there signed up so that they could have money for school. Not to actually go to war. They knew the threat was there, but didn't heed the warnings of their hearts. I have seen many men and women break down crying because they got called to active duty. We also have to think that this is war. War does not come without casualties. Did anyone ever look at the statistics for WW 1 or WW 2 how many men were killed then? or even Vietnam? You could double and triple the numbers for this war and not have the numbers for even one of those wars. And when the service men cam home from those wars they were given parades and welcomed. Many men and women today don't have anything to come home to but booze and drugs. I don't want my country men to die for nothing. I also think that the patriotism of this country has dwindled to a point that all we do is talk about stuff and nobody takes action. If you want the men and women to come home. Lobby for it. Write to your congressmen and women. Talk to those who hold an office and see what you can do. We forget that these people work for us. If enough of us rally together to solve the problem, things might just change.

    So, even though I don't think we should have gone over there in the first place, we need to utilize who we have over there now so that the next group can make more headway for the peaceful removal of the troops instead of a bloody mess when we do leave. I don't think we should appoint ourselves as the World Police, but the UN isn't doing it and neither is anyone else.

    Yes, bring our troops home and not in body bags, but get the job done right so we can bring them all home. It is my patriotic duty to support them... no matter what. My friends have fought in this war. Some of them are over there right now. I haven't because I have medical issues which prevent me from being of use to the military. If I could have, I would have regardless of the price. We are getting into the bigger debate of one versus many. If you want to discuss bio ethics we can make a thread for that too...
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    Re: Iraq - Should we stay or should we go?

    Post by Fact on Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:09 pm

    to attach a comment on yogibears post, here it goes

    *WARNING THIS IS HARSH AND I DONT REALLY MEAN IT, but like a previous post i did, i take the other side of the argument, Please dont hurt me lol*



    The Military is here for one thing, to fight our wars and if people just joined "so they could get money" then we need to fix the system. i mean, We Dont higher teachers so they dont teach, or engineers so they wont engineer, or any job. Remember the military IS a Job and with that job comes responsibilities Few See (non military, non military families). They are our line of defense our agressive offense they ARE america, i few months ago on the old boards i was talking about how Americans have lost the drive to do anything, and our country will soon be a pushover, the ONE thing i was counting on that wouldnt change is the drive of our military. and as i see the Core Group of military personnel still believe this, however there have been many people who refuse to do their job and still want to collect their paycheck, (not talkling about the injured who physically cant). im sorry but i dont know a signle profession where not working, not doing your job is ok.

    This is NOT about the men and women fighting in IRAQ this is not about Afghanastan this is not about Anyone who is doing their job as it entails in the military, this is about those people who "Joined so they could get money." That has got to be the Most Unpatriotic thing i have ever heard, well minus "This is the Greatest Country on Earth, lets Change it" .

    I To would probably be over their right now if it wasn't for medical reasons.


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    Re: Iraq - Should we stay or should we go?

    Post by Hannible on Thu Dec 18, 2008 3:51 pm

    I know in my high school most people dont care about the people in Iraq and Middle East and have no sense of patriotism. Pretty much the only people who have any sense of patriotism are the kids who parents or other family members were in the military.
    And my dad is in the Air National Guard and has been to the Middle east 3 times. Once Operation Desert Storm/shield and twice after 9/11. And im going to join the military once i get though high school and collage.

    Now said all this, i believe we should stay in the middle East till we finish the job. If we get out to soon, some crazy person will probably get control of that country and he could do alot of bad thingd

    and i also believe that anyone who joins the military for money and ONLY monkey is poabably the most unpatriotic person ever

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    Re: Iraq - Should we stay or should we go?

    Post by Rohan on Thu Dec 18, 2008 7:33 pm

    I agree with you one hundred percent, Hannible!

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    Re: Iraq - Should we stay or should we go?

    Post by yogibare on Fri Dec 19, 2008 8:15 am

    preciouspearl77 wrote:
    yogibare wrote:I think we should stay in Iraq. There is nothing worse than being in the military with nobody to shoot at. Besides its great training and exercise for our troops.


    As of March 29, 2008 2,873 American Soldiers Have Died In Iraq & 21,572 Have Been Wounded.

    The 2,873 men and women who died in Iraq could have done without the "great training".

    The 21,572 Americans wounded in Iraq could have done without the "exercise".

    The loss of any one American Soldier diminishes me. It would have been wiser to never place boots into Iraq and to just lob missiles at them until nothing was moving. That is why we have the Air Force - to save Soldiers lives. But before you get your panties in a bunch over the statistics of how many Soldiers lost their lives in this war:

    Peace Time Death Statistics

    As bad as it looks at first glance - this is nothing. We lose more lives normally due to accidents during training exercises than we do in Iraq. The media wants to hype it out of context to support their views and weaken our morale.

    Besides, whats the use of having a military if you never use it? The men and women that sign up to serve our country know they do so at the hands of fate. No man is promised the next breath they take in. Its better to die in battle in the service of your country than be hit by a bus while just trying to get to work.

    I am a proud disabled vet who served in the Air Force and trained the pilots that bombed Iraq. My wife is currently serving in the Army in support of our troops making vaccines and doing other research tests. I know that she could be sent to Iraq at any time and lose her life and leave me with 3 children to raise alone. I stand proudly beside her and defend decision to serve this country at the risk of her own life.

    I stand by all my statements and truly believe this is nothing more than a training exercise as far as our troops are concerned. Few countries can stand before the might of our army so this really is not much of a war in the true sense. Wait till we get into it with China.

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    Re: Iraq - Should we stay or should we go?

    Post by Pontiac on Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:09 am

    Better to engage the enemy on foreign soil by trained soldiers than on our own land on the 90th floor of a high rise by a receptionist. We should stay in Iraq, Afghanistan and all nations who are intolerant but respect only force. How long ago did we win WW2 and yet no one complains that we are still in Germany.

    The president of Iran (and the middle east in general) supports killing all gays and yet most gay people (democrats) support pulling out of the middle east. The majority of Arab nations fight for the destruction of Israel and yet most American Jews (democrats) fight for a diminished presence in the middle east. The National Organization of Women (NOW) claim to be for women's right but allow women to be subjected to the most vile subjugation and humiliation known to man in the middle east without uttering a peep in their defense. There is no more hypocritical or dumber animal on earth than a liberal democrat. I'm so happy that they have the white house and both chambers of congress so they can prove my point. Too bad the country has to suffer in the interem.

    The liberals and blame America first crowd are all worthless traitors.

    Pontiac

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    Re: Iraq - Should we stay or should we go?

    Post by kaliiza on Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:26 pm

    For the folks who are against people joining the military "for the college money"....

    If you have noticed, the military promotes the college money to enlist people. A good number of the doctors I've met in the six years at Ft. Hood are residents in e ARMY to well... pay back their college loans. It probably isn't the most frequent topic at the dinner table but seriously. "People who sign on only for the money are the most unpatriotic people ever???" That is really harsh and totally unreasonable. The tag lines for recruiters start with 1. college money 2. Job experience. 3. serving your country. I know people who completely suck in corporate America and like the army for the pay stability and the structure. Are they too... the most unpatriotic people.. ever..??

    Seriously, you guys are judging people for trying to better their lives. Who care why they are serving? The fact is... they are (no matter what reason they originally went in with).
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    Iraq

    Post by ambrosiaa on Fri Jan 02, 2009 10:52 pm

    Personally I'd like to see an end to the war. We've got so many economic troubles at home that we need the money here. i don't think middle east countries are ever going to warm up to the USA. Too much bad blood already and too many governments preaching that the USA is evil. We should just stay out of the region and focus on trying to make the USA strong again. But politics and intelligence rarily mix well.

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    Re: Iraq - Should we stay or should we go?

    Post by Pontiac on Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:14 am

    Before 9-11 and the advent of dirty bombs and other new aggressive terrorist strategies, I would be inclined to agree with you. But the world we live in now requires a new vigilance that the doves are not prepared to committ to.
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    Iraq

    Post by ambrosiaa on Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:41 am

    I'm not one of the doves. My preference would be to carpet bomb the major cities in places like North Korea. Oh - the good old days when war was actually war. What ever happened to the theory that winning a war was destroying as much of another country as possible? I don't like "partial" wars. My problem with Irag is purely financial. It's just that we are spending so much money on the Iraq effort while we should be spending it in other areas. It's like being attacked by 5 bears and we keep beating the dead one. Suspect

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